Do assassins fit in the meta ?


    Hyper Universe Rep: 255
    Posts: 40
    edited September 5, 2017
    Tuskai wrote: »
    I don't think you've ever played any assassin ever, almost all your "Information" is just dead wrong. Let me go down the list.

    EVERY assassin has some level of CC, Stuns, slows, grapples, knock ups, it's ALL CC. Louis might have the longest amount of uninterrupted CC, and Trak might be able to go CC Immune himself, but they are both undoutably the slowest, most easily spotted and reacted to, they have to slowly weave on over to the target to finally CC them, Blue Rose has her dash attack, Kurenai's flip has amazing range and speed, and Saptielbub can headbutt through almost an entire screen width in less then half a second.

    I was not clear enough with what I ment. I ment they don't have 'powerful' CC. The way I rank a CC's strength is almost entirely based on their speed, distance, and in louis' case the dodge which is added on to the CC. You can have a CC that locks people down for 99 seconds but takes 1 second to come out and has short range and I would rank that CC as useless.
    Tuskai wrote: »
    You don't know a thing about how Kurenai works. Not only does she have natural Armor penetration, just being near a target that's alone lowers their armor further FOR HER ENTIRE TEAM.

    I will admit when I don't know something. I did not know this. However, this seems like a team ability doesn't it? My oppinion is still that there are better hypers for team fights than Kurenai. So what if her damage source comes from armor pen or w/e, the amount of damage she puts out is still the same as what I based my arguments around.
    Tuskai wrote: »
    Her ultimate also does a heavy percentage of a target's missing health, making it, on it's own, a near guaranteed kill on anyone near half health or less, before she continues with her other two stuns. Her stealth actually makes it so she doesn't show up on the mini map, so wards won't spot her coming, neither do minions. All of her stuns also come out in less then six frames, you might predict when it's coming, but you can't react to them on a surprise attack. Flat out. Even beyond all that, she's at a 100% ban rate in tournaments, and they aren't gonna ban her because she's a free win for the other team.

    I really don't want to sound like a prick but wtf man. You think I can't read or something? Literally everything you said can be found out by just clicking game info. Now I don't follow the tournaments, but you can't just say pros pick her thus she's not trash. Please break it down for me since I clearly have a different oppinion than the rest of you. Don't just say pros pick her so shes not trash, tell me pros pick her cuz she can do X and offers Y over other hypers thus she is strong.

    I don't care enough about the game to get into frame data but assuming what you said is correct, you are missing some huge details. 6 frame startup...and theres also wind down frames, kurenai gets cc'ed herself when she does her W, E or R. Also I'm not talking about stuffing her W by itself I'm talking about you see your carry get hit by her W approach, you have enough time to react to stuff her ult. Kurenai doesn't magically teleport in front of your face, you also have to take into account the dash approach frames/coming out of ladder frames when talking about reaction speed. I am not talking out of my ass with this one, If I am playing athena/kraken I can stuff her ult on reaction (Which I think is perfectly fine and a good weakness assassins should have!!!).
    Tuskai wrote: »
    Trak might be CC Immune, but he's meant for killing Tanks/Bruisers. Strikers and Specialists laugh at his mobility, anyone with a solid mobility skill can easily either out run him when he's in his ult, or just out kite him if he's not. You scoffed at how easily interrupted Kurenai's CC was, when it has all but a few frames of start up, and you're praising Louis? Who can be shunted out of his Solid FIVE SECONDS OF CC AT ANY POINT? He might have CC immunity while he's getting in close, but he's got the slowest, most predictable dash, it's all about just dashing back when you see him coming in, then laughing as he has no options for dealing with proper defensive play.

    Regarding Trak, I don't play him so everything I said was purely from an observational standpoint. I'll take your word for it.
    So since when did I say louis ult was what made him strong? Read what I wrote again. His dodge makes him an assassin that has uninterruptable CC which allows him to initiate fights. And really, dashing back is counter play to assassins? I would have never guessed.
    Tuskai wrote: »
    Star ratings are usually pretty accurate to a character's degree of difficulty, it's not just about individual skill, it's also about how easily it is to counter them. Ryta is 4 stars because she's a short range striker, she might be mobile, but when I was learning her, there were plenty of times where using the wrong skill, or facing in the wrong way, got me killed, and she's VERY vulnerable to assassins, more so then any Striker due to her short range. Kurenai has very specific ranges on all her skills, and it's very easy to miss them, as well as being specialized at ganking alone targets, which smart players can avoid quite easily. Turner is 2 stars because he isn't the easiest Striker to play, his CC is easily avoided, his attack speed is slow, and a staggering amount of Turner players don't understand the nuiances of ANY of his abilities. Like his hawk reveals invisible targets AND provides crit chance to allies, his Trap makes all shots crits, his attack speed buff cools down faster with each critical hit, and his ultimate not only gives a given target bonus gold on kill/assist, it also gives turner bonus crit chance against them AND makes it so any shots to them ignore damage dispersion. Jack is three stars because he has an utterly garbage early game, Wild card is the worst alternate attack of all the strikers, his card buffs have no scaling, his ultimate costs 25% of his max health, and the parasol is the weakest striker escape tool. His saving grace is his ludicrous attack speed, making him a true late game hyper carry that just shreds everything in front of him once he has a full build.

    I wrote this tidbit because I didn't agree with the game's star system and I believe different people find different characters more difficult than others. It was a response to the guy's argument of "this character is hard to play so your oppinion don't matter cuz ur clearly not good enough to play this character". If you disagree with me w/e but no need to argue with me over the difficulty of the characters. Also again I can read, I know what their abilities do, no need to type it all out. I also disagree with what you said about stars corrolating to difficulty to counter but I'm not gona argue over that because this is a separate topic.
    Tuskai wrote: »
    And a quick run down of your critique of that list.

    1. They never said that, they said Assassins can fulfill a similar role if they build for it. And also, you don't always get to see what your opponent is picking, so, "Just pick a bruiser" isn't good advice, you're trying to pick what you think will win, and having flexible builds is more realistic then OMNISCIENCE.
    2. Then you're blind, Assassins have HUGE burst damage that bruisers don't have, and all of them have some degree of mobility or damage reduction to get in and out quickly and or safely.
    3. This shows the problems you're having. Let me go down the list. .5 second stun? Why aren't you using her Dash-stun while standing still? It comes out in less then .5 seconds. Then follow that up with the stealth stun. That right there is a solid 2.5 or so seconds of stun time they can't do anything about. on top of that, since they're also getting passive armor shred from not being with their team due to Kurenai's passive, if a team of 3 can't kill them, they have to be a tank, and in that case, why did you just try to go all in on a tank idiot?
    4. I'll concede that one as "Debateable." I've seen every role carry a match before, Striker, Bruiser, Tank, Assassin, Specialist, and even Support, it really comes down to team comp for both sides, and individual skill and builds.

    Honestly, it's plain to see you just don't know to play most Assassins properly, they all have amazing burst potential, and you're whining they don't 100 to 0 stun-lock people easy enough, which is why you love Louis so much, since he does that, that is the kind of Assassin Louis is. Trak is the kind that doesn't have to worry about peeling, he just sticks to targets easily, that's the kind he is. Blue Rose is a hyper mobile, chain killing assassin with her resets, Kurenai is the ganking specialist, she can easily separate a member from their team and pick them off, and Saptielbub is the hyper carry assassin, starts out weaker, becomes a demon of death when he starts racking up kills.

    1. So if draft pick ever comes out for ranked then assassins > bruisers? You can't say build assassins like a bruiser and they are fine because they won't be useless in a game because imo if you build assassins as a bruiser then they are bruisers, not assassins. If you have to build them as a bruiser that means assassins are not fine.

    2. I disagree completely assassin's damage are tied into their mobility. If you use it to get out you don't do the burst, if you do the burst you don't get out. Bruisers's damage are not tied to mobility. From my experience of playing assassin and bruisers, assassin dives rely on your opponent being bad/lagging in order to reach them cuz they should be able to dash back, especially since theres no way to flank them under tower. Whereas bruiser dives are brute force with way less counter play.

    Read what I said again, .5 seconds taken OFF of her ult.

    Using W while standing still? I'm assuming you mean second activation first. Well because kurenai doesn't have a magical ability that lets her appear in range of her enemies and W them, you need the first activation to get in.

    You what mate? W + E = 2.5 seconds??? it's 1.5 seconds with no time to weave extra autos in between.

    Why did I go all in on a tank? well I didn't realize ignitia and aisha is considered tank characters, please you are clearly playing at a much higher level then me teach me more.

    Lets do a rough calculation of how much this patch hurt kurenai. Hypers on average gets hp buffed by 150 and hp/lvl buffed by 9, so at lvl 6 you need to get through 200 more hp to kill them on average, that's 4 more auto attacks, the damage nerf doesn't come into play this early but later on it's like losing an auto attacks. Ult CC nerf means she loses 0.5 seconds to attack, that's another auto attack she lost but it's really worse than that since she actually loses an A cast since theres no room to weave that in during her combo, so just looking at 1v1 scenario she needs 5+ more auto attacks to kill a target compared to pre-patch and it only gets worse as the game goes on. In a pick scenario it's even worse since you're team loses 0.5 seconds of attacking as well not to mention they can't hit them while the enemy is up in the air.

    And please don't make the argument of well actually kurenai does more dmg per health ratio in this patch since every other hyper's damage also got nerfed. Look I don't care about those things, you can nerf kurenai's health by 200 but increase her damage by 10 and I would be happy because I don't care about assassins being more durable, assassins don't care about their damage output to tankyness ratio, its all about how fast you can kill the enemy when you get a pick so their cd's don't come back up or before their team reaches them.
  • 001ofMany001ofMany
    Hyper Universe Rep: 375
    Posts: 38
    edited September 6, 2017

    but seriously though, I don't like the idea of an assassin (or anything really) being able to insta-kill me from full health in one combo, regardless of how optimized their build is. (Like seriously thank the good LORD, Louis's Fancy Feet got nerfed to sh*t. That thing alone made him capable of putting the entire enemy team in a three week coma.) I like that playstyle, team comp, and deck loadout take priority over the stereotypical roles and archetypes. I've seen plenty of wonky team comps and builds that work.

    It gives the game another layer of meta that players should consider. Sure, an assassin that builds toward raw damage SHOULD be able to delete a squishy like Aisha or Tat or Celine or whatever (if they spot them outta position), but remember that those "easy" targets can also negate that advantage by simply building against it. Same goes with every other role. If you lock yourself into the mindset that certain roles should ONLY fulfill that role and do so without compromise, you're limiting yourself to all the creativity this game offers.

    Blue Rose is an "assassin" yes, but she can hold a lane pretty well so I have a burst damage deck and a laning deck just in case my team isn't running a proper laner or if the enemy team looks like it has too much laning pressure. With said deck, I abuse her Deadly Barrage and build around that; taking the unique that shreds def. the flail, halberd, breath of fire, claw, and sanguine scythe. The hole point of that build is to abuse Deadly Barrage to hold lanes and shred enemy stats in team fights so my allies can make up for my lack of burst, and it still lets me do what I need to do if their health gets low enough. Otherwise I just go with a pretty standard burst build for the on-kill resets. Like a typical assassin.

    As for Louis, I feel like he should just be moved over to the Bruiser's section. He has the tools to be both a Tank (honestly, I don't understand why I don't see many tank Louis's) and an Assassin, though my opinion is that he's the least effective assassin among them simply because his Ult cc's himself as well, so you better hope you catch everyone, or that there's no one, else is around to interrupt you. <<< Which is why I think more folks should have a deck for him as a tank with stun-locks.

    I don't play much of Trak or Bubz but I'm sure there are plenty of tips and tricks and gimmicks and sh*t that can be tossed around to make them more interesting.

    If your complaint is that you want more kills. That's cool. I'm not trying to take anything away from that. Just understand, that your opponents have the ability to make that hard for you, so you'll just have to figure a way around it. I won't pretend like I have tips for Kurenai tho, she's way over my head. lol, but I wish you the best of luck on your assassinations you sneaky lil rascals you.

    Also, as a side-note: Plenty of the other characters can fill/play the assassin role as well. My bebe girl Ryta for one, is inherently an assassin with her "stealth mode activate" and her mobility. Jennifer can be as well because she's got the best ganking, duh- but also because of her passive stuns and teleport stomps that are both combo reliant. So build her bursty and see how it works for you. uhh... can't think of any others off the top of my head, but ya, you get the picture. Go out there and experiment!